Umukuru w’Igihugu yabigarutseho mu kiganiro kirekire yagiranye n’Umwanditsi Mukuru wa Jeune Afrique, François Soudan. Cyabaye ku wa 17 Mutarama 2023, muri Village Urugwiro.

Yavuye imuzi ibibazo by’umutekano muke muri RDC, avuga uburyo yabajije Tshisekedi niba abagize M23 ari Abanyarwanda, undi imbere y’abandi bakuru b’ibihugu agasubiza ashize amanga, ko ari Abanye-Congo.

Perezida Kagame yagarutse no ku zindi ngingo zirimo iya manda itaha, abazwa niba azongera kwiyamamaza, abazwa kandi no ku bindi bihugu Ingabo z’u Rwanda zishobora kugiramo uruhare mu kugarura amahoro nk’uko biri kugenda muri Mozambique na Centrafrique.

Jeune Afrique: Mu ijambo ryanyu mu ntangiro z’umwaka, ubu hashize ukwezi, mwashimangiye ko ibibazo byo mu Burasirazuba bwa RDC "byarushijeho kuba bibi". Ni ko mubibona n’uyu munsi?

Perezida Kagame: Nyemerera ngaruke ku mateka, kuko hari ubwo bigorana kumva neza ikibazo gihari uyu munsi. Uburasirazuba bwa RDC bumaze igihe bufite ikibazo cy’umutekano muke guhera mu 1994. Muri icyo gihe, hafi miliyoni ebyiri z’abanyarwanda bavuye mu gihugu bahungirayo.

Umubare munini wabo, kuva icyo gihe batahutse mu Rwanda, ariko hari bake basigayeyo, ubu bari ku ruhembe rw’abaduteza umutekano muke.

Aba biyongeraho imitwe isaga ijana yitwaje intwaro ikorera muri kariya gace. Umubare munini wayo, ni imitwe ishingiye ku moko yashinzwe mu kwirwanaho.

Hashize imyaka irenga 20, Loni ishora miliyari nyinshi z’amadolari ku mutwe wari ufite inshingano zo kugarura amahoro muri Kivu zombi, ariko ibyo tubona, nta musaruro, usa n’utariho.

Hanyuma rero, mu gushaka umuntu ugerekwaho intandaro y’uwo musaruro wa ntawo, u Rwanda ruba urwitwazo. Umuryango mpuzamahanga ni uko ushaka kubibona kandi wo ubwawo warananiwe, ni uko abayobozi ba Congo bashaka kubibona, bo bishimiye ahubwo kubona urwitwazo rw’ibyo bananiwe gukora.

Ndabyumva ko u Rwanda rufite uruhare mu bibazo byo mu Burasirazuba, ariko ni gute ushobora kumvikanisha ko arirwo kibazo, rwo rwonyine? Ni ukudashyira mu gaciro, ndetse ni ibintu bidatanga umusaruro na mba.

Mu gihe cyose amahanga na guverinoma zagiye zisimburana muri Congo bagumye muri iyi ntero, ntabwo igisubizo kirambye cy’ibibazo by’Uburasirazuba bwa Congo kizigera kiboneka.

Ni ibintu bigaragara mu maso yanjye ko inshingano za mbere kuri iki kibazo, ziri mu biganza by’abayobozi ba Congo, ku rundi ruhande, no ku bihugu byo mu Burengerazuba bw’Isi byagize n’ubundi uruhare mu ntangiriro z’ibibazo.

Reka dufate urugero ku mutwe w’iterabwoba wa FDLR. Ni gute wasobanura ko n’ubu ugihari, nyuma y’imyaka 29 Jenoside ibaye, mu gihe hari Monusco?

Mu mpera za 2019, uyu mutwe wongeye kugaba igitero cyishe abantu mu Kinigi, mu gace k’ubukerarugendo ka Musanze, wica abasivile 14 mbere yo guhungira ku ruhande rwa Congo.

Kuba twafata inshingano tukiyemeza kurwanya aba bantu aho bari hose, kandi nta n’umuntu uzabitubuza, ni ukubera ko abafite inshingano zo kubikora mbere na mbere batabikora.

Icyo nabizeza ni uko, mu gihe cyose nkiriho ndetse no mu hazaza h’abakibyiruka, nta Jenoside izongera kuba mu Rwanda. Nubwo byasaba ko turwana dukoresheje imyambi, amacumu n’amabuye, ntabwo izongera kuba.

Perezida Kagame yasobanuye byinshi ku bibazo bya RDC

Mubona impamvu M23 irwanira zifite ishingiro, ku buryo iba umutwe witwaje intwaro?

Mu nama iherutse mu 2022, nabajije Perezida Félix Tshisekedi ikibazo gikurikira: "Reka tureke guta umwanya duca ibintu ku ruhande. Ufata abagize M23, imiryango yabo, ndetse n’ibihumbi by’impunzi zo muri iyo miryango, nk’Abanye-Congo cyangwa nk’Abanyarwanda?" Aransubiza, imbere y’abandi bakuru b’ibihugu ati "Ni Abanye-Congo".

Ni ibyo. Abanye-Congo b’inkomoko cyangwa se wenda bafite umuco nyarwanda, ariko ni abaturage b’Abanye-Congo, nk’uko mu Majyepfo ya Uganda hari uturere turimo Abanya-Uganda bavuga Ikinyarwanda kandi nta kibazo biteye. Hanyuma, niba kuba bari muri Congo biteye ikibazo, ni iki nkwiriye kubazwa?

Ku rundi ruhande, aho bitugiriraho ikibazo ni igihe imiryango amagana yavanywe mu byabo yitwa ko ari "Abanyarwanda" cyangwa se "Abatutsi", ikaza gushaka ubuhungiro hano.

Aba Banye-Congo bari kugirwaho ingaruka n’ivangura rishingiye ku moko bamaze kugera mu Rwanda ari ibihumbi 80. Barabwirwa ngo "Nimusubire iwanyu". Ariko iwabo kuva mu binyejana byinshi bishize, ni mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo!

Guverinoma ya Kabila yijeje ko izakemura iki kibazo. Nta kintu cyakozwe. Guverinoma ya Tshisekedi na yo yatanze iryo sezerano, ndese abayobozi ba M23 bagiye i Kinshasa, aho bamaze amezi ane muri hotel nta muntu urabakira.

Benshi mu bagize M23 bari barahungiye muri Uganda, babonye ko birengagijwe barongera barisuganya, basubira guharanira uburenganzira bwabo.

Mwishyire mu mwanya w’aba bantu, bavukiye kandi bagakurira muri Congo, ababyeyi babo na ba sekuru bavukiye ku butaka bwa Congo, ubu bari kubwirwa ngo basubire iyo baturutse mbere y’ubukoloni na mbere y’uko imipaka ibaho!

Hanyuma wibaze uko Afurika yahinduka buri wese akinnye uyu mukino mubi. Ibyo kandi ubyongereho imvugo z’urwango ziva mu bagize Guverinoma, abayobozi, abanyapoliiki b’abanye-Congo, n’isano hagati yabyo n’ibyabaye mu Rwanda mu 1994. Ni ibintu byigaragaza.

Gufata aba bantu (M23) ukabita Abatutsi, ni ibintu bitanga igisobanuro kitari cyo kandi kiyobya: ni ukuvuga ko ubwo bashyigikiwe, bahabwa inkunga n’intwaro n’abavandimwe babo b’Abatutsi bo mu Rwanda, ku isonga na Kagame ubwe.

Muhakana ubufasha ubwo aribwo bwose bw’igisirikare cyanyu kuri M23. Wahamya ko nta ruhare na ruto rwanyu kuri Sultan Makenga n’abarwanyi be?

Ibirego by’uruhare rwanjye mu bibazo bya Congo, ntabwo bimpangayikisha. Si ubwa mbere nta n’ubwo ari ubwa nyuma. Icy’ingenzi ni ukumenya impamvu nabigiramo uruhare.

Niba mutibaza iki kibazo, muca ku ruhande ibintu by’ingenzi. Kandi igisubizo kiroroshye: impungenge ku mutekano wacu biturutse ku bikorwa by’umutwe ugendera ku ngengabitekerezo ya Jenoside nka FDLR, zo ubwazo zatugeza ku butaka bwa Congo, nta guca ku ruhande cyangwa se gusaba uburenganzira.

Iyo utewe ntabwo utegereza amabwiriza y’uguteye cyangwa se y’umukingiye ikibaba ngo ubone kugira icyo ukora.

Ku birebana na M23, bishobora kugera aho mvugana n’abayobozi bayo. Kuko n’ubundi, bari ku mipaka yacu, kandi ibiganiro bya Nairobi na Luanda, byo ubwabyo bisaba ko habaho kuganira n’imitwe yose yitwaje intwaro, harimo n’uyu, birasobanutse.

Ku bw’ibyo natanze ubutumwa kuri M23, nsaba abayobozi bayo guhagarika imirwano, bakava mu bice bari bigaruriye. Ni ibintu bemeye. Ikibazo, ni Ingabo za Congo zabyuririyeho zigatangira kubagabaho ibitero, mbere yo kongera gutsindwa.

Natekerezaga ko FDLR ari umutwe wacitse intege. Ni nk’aho atari ko mubibona…

FDLR isigaye yarinjijwe muri FARDC, aha ni ho hari ikibazo. Ibi ntibitubuza gusaba uburenganzira bwacu bwo kuba twajya kuzimya inkongi duhereye aho yaturutse, aho ariho hose, kandi bidasabye uburenganzira bw’uwo ari we wese.

Nta na rimwe u Rwanda rwigeze rujya muri Congo rugiye gukemura ikibazo kitari gisanzwe gihari, kandi kidafite ingaruka ku mutekano wacu.

Ntabwo mubona ko mwatewe umugongo ku ruhando mpuzamahanga?

Duhezwa mu biki? Duhezwa na nde? Aya mateka yo guhezwa yibagirwe. Iyo ushyigikiwe 100% n’abaturage bawe, ibindi ntacyo bivuze.

Ni gute ibi bibazo byarangira?

Ku ruhande rumwe, M23 igomba guhagarika imirwano. Ku rundi, kandi mu gihe kimwe, Guverinoma ya Congo igomba kwigana ubushishozi ibyo basaba, n’ibyo barwanira, ikabisubiza.

Abayobozi ba Kinshasa bakwiriye guhagarika imvugo zibasira Abatutsi no gucunaguza abaturage babohereza mu Rwanda mu gihe bari iwabo muri Congo.

Hanyuma, aho kugira ngo umuryango mpuzamahanga ukomeze kwica amatwi wumva gusa ibivugwa n’uruhande rwa Congo, impande zirebwa zikwiriye kugira uruhare mu kwakira aba bantu. U Rwanda ntabwo ari ahantu hadatuwe ku buryo igihugu cy’igituranyi cyumva ko gishobora kuhohereza abantu kidashaka.

M23 yashinjwe gukora ibyaha byibasiye abasivile by’umwihariko muri Kishishe mu mpera z’Ugushyingo 2022, ese murabyamagana?

Namagana ikibi aho cyaba giturutse hose. Gusa icyo mbona, ibyaha bikorwa na FDLR cyangwa FARDC ntibijya bigaragazwa, cyangwa bikaba gake. Kubera iki? Ikigaragara ni uko nta musifuzi uhari udafite uruhande abogamiyemo muri iki kibazo, ni naryo pfundo ry’ikibazo.

Ubwo mu mpera za 2021 yatumiraga ingabo za uganda n’u Burundi ngo zifatanye n’ingabo ze mu kurwanya imitwe yitwaje intwaro mu burasirazuba, hatarimo iz’u Rwanda atanabamenyesheje, Tshisekedi yaba yaratangije ikibazo?

Reka tuvuge ko byagaragaje neza ibyo agambiriye. Igitekerezo cyo gukorana n’ibihugu by’abaturanyi, birimo u Rwanda, mu gukemura ikibazo cy’imitwe yitwaje intwaro, nitwe cyaturutsemo ndetse cyaganiriweho mu biganiro byacu n’ubuyobozi bwa Congo mu mpera za 2019 no mu ntangiro za 2020. Kuba Kinshasa nyuma yaraje kudushyira ku ruhande bivuze ko Congo wenda nta cyifuzo ifite cyangwa ubushake bwo gukemura ikibazo cyihariye cya FDLR.

Iyo myumvire yanagendeweho mu kwanga ko u Rwanda ruba mu mutwe w’Ingabo z’Akarere ziyobowe na Kenya. Igihe cyose Guverinoma ya Congo yumva ko ishobora gukemura ikibazo cya FDLR nta ruhare tubigizemo, nta gisubizo kizaboneka.

Muheruka guhura na Felix Tshisekedi muri Nzeri 2022 i New York bigizwemo uruhare na Perezida w’u Bufaransa, Emmanuel Macron. Nta musaruro twabonye byatanze, bisa nk’aho nta cyizere kikiri hagati yanyu, byatewe n’iki?

Bijyanye n’ibyo nari maze kuvuga. Kuri twe Abanyarwanda, kuba imitwe yakoze Jenoside iri ku mipaka yacu, ni ikibazo gikomeye cyane ku mutekano w’igihugu. Tugasanga abaturanyi bacu bakorana n’abanzi bacu, hanyuma mugashaka ko tubagirira icyizere?

Perezida Macron aheruka guhuriza Perezida Kagame na Tshisekedi i New York

Mu ntangiriro z’Ukuboza 2022 ubwo Perezida Tshisekedi yahuraga n’urubyiruko rw’Abanye-Congo, yagaragaje ko yifuza gufasha Abanyarwanda kwikiza abategetsi babo, mwabyakiriye gute?

Ni uburenganzira bwe. Ni nabyo ari kugerageza mu gukorana na FDLR akeneye imbere ku rugamba. Ibindi, nanjye mfite amatsiko yo kumenya uko azabigenza.

Imvugo z’urwango zibasiye Abatutsi, Abanyamulenge n’Abanyarwanda, zamaganwa na Guverinoma ya Congo. Ese ntibyaha bihabanye n’uko byari byifashe mu Rwanda mu 1994?

Ibikorwa birivugira. Ntabwo nemeranya n’abavuga ko bikorwa n’abantu runaka cyangwa udutsiko runaka, ko aribo barebwa n’imvugo z’urwango. Ni imvugo zishimangirwa na Guverinoma ya Congo. Ntabwo wajya ku ruhande ngo ushyireho uburyo butuma izo mvugo zisagamba, hanyuma ku rundi ngo ugaruke uzamagane.

RDC iri mu mwaka w’amatora ateganyijwe mu mpera za 2023, mutekereza ko byaba bifitanye isano n’ibibazo icyo gihugu gifitanye n’u Rwanda?

Birigaragaza kuko bitanga urwitwazo muri politiki. Aho kwiyamamaza bagaragaza uko umutungo mwinshi Congo ifite wakoreshwa mu guhindura imibereho myiza y’abaturage, ibintu tuzi ko biteza ikibazo, bahisemo kwitwaza u Rwanda. Ni uburyo bworoshye bwo kwihunza inshingano.

Mubona hekenewe iki ngo amahoro arambye aboneke mu Burasirazuba bwa Congo?

Ntabwo hakenewe byinshi, igikenewe ni kimwe. Abayobozi ba Congo n’abanyapolitiki bagomba kugira umuhate wo guhangana n’ikibazo, bakiyemeza kugikemura, aho gushakira inzitwazo hanze y’igihugu. Nta na hamwe ku isi amahoro arambye yigeze yubakirwa ku kwihunza inshingano.

Ikibazo cyaba ari imiyoborere, umutekano cyangwa byombi? Abanye-Congo nibo bo kubikemura, bagafata inshingano.

Ni iki wabwira abirirwa bavuga ko uri umuntu mubi?

Ntacyo mfite cyo kubabwira kinyerekeyeho. Ubu se mutekereza ko ibibazo RDC ifite mu miyoborere, imicungire y’umutungo, inshingano no kuzibazwa…byose byaje ku munsi FPR na Kagame bagiye ku buyobozi Kigali? Ubu namwe mwemeza ko ari njye utuma 1% by’abanye-Congo aribo bungukira mu mutungo kamere igihugu cyabo gifite, hanyuma 99% ntibibagereho? Cyangwa se ko imitwe yitwaje intwaro igera ku 120 ikomeje kuyogoza Uburasirazuba?

Buri wese agira ibibazo bye, ntimuzigera munyumva mbwira bagenzi banjye ko ibibazo bafite byatewe n’abanye-Congo. Icyakora ndagira ngo mvuge nti: Congo ni igihugu kinini mu baturage, mu buso, mu mutungo kamere, umuco, ariko bakwiriye no kugera kuri urwo rwego mu miyoborere n’iterambere.

Kumva ibyo babwirwa na bamwe mu bayobozi babo bangaragaza nk’umuntu mubi ngo babone uko bahunga inshingano zabo, ntacyo bizahindura.

Umubano wanyu na Uganda wabaye mwiza. Ese mufitiye icyizere Perezida Yoweri Museveni?

Dufitanye umubano mwiza cyane nubwo hakiri utubazo duto two gukemura hagati yacu. Ariko nta na kimwe tudashobora kugeraho dukoreye hamwe.

U Burundi bwo bimeze gute?

Mbona ko hari impinduka nziza. Nk’uko mubizi, aha haracyari impunzi z’Abarundi ariko Abayobozi b’i Bujumbura bafashe inshingano zabo kuri icyo kibazo.

U Burundi ariko hari bamwe muri izo mpunzi bufata nk’abatavuga rumwe n’ubutegetsi cyangwa se abashatse kubuhirika….

Yego, icyo kibazo kiracyahari ariko si cyo cyonyine. Gusa ubushake bwo kubikemura ni bwo bw’ingenzi.

U Rwanda rufite inzego z’umutekano zarwo muri Centrafrique na Mozambique. Mwaba mwishimira ibyo zimaze kugeraho?

Ntabwo biramera neza ariko ntekereza ko ibimaze kugerwaho biri ku rwego rwo hejuru. Haba muri Centrafrique no muri Cabo Delgado muri Mozambique, aho kujyayo kwacu kwatumye ibikorwa by’iterabwoba bitagera mu zindi ntara, ibikorwa by’umutekano muke byaragabanyutse cyane.

Ntabwo ubunararibonye dutanga hariya ari ubwa gisirikare gusa. Igihugu cyacu cyigeze gusenyuka burundu, gifite byinshi byo gusangiza abandi mu bijyanye no kongera kwiyubaka, mu nzego zose.

Mwaba mutekereza ku kohereza ingabo mu Majyaruguru ya Bénin gufasha iz’icyo gihugu guhangana n’imitwe y’iterabwoba?

Ntabwo bibujijwe. Umubano wacu na Bénin uragutse kandi uri mu nzego nyinshi, harimo n’ibijyanye n’umutekano. Urwego biriho ni uko ntacyo tutageraho dukoreye hamwe.

Mwasinye amasezerano yo kwakira abimukira bavuye mu bihugu birimo u Bwongereza, Denmark na Israel. Mwabwira iki abavuga ko murajwe ishinga n’amafaranga no kwigaragaza neza mu bijyanye na politiki no guhindura isura yanyu mu bijyanye n’uburenganzira bwa muntu?

Birangora kumva abantu bavuga ibyo. Kuki batabanza kwibaza ku nkomoko n’impamvu abo bimukira bagenda? Kuki bumva ko banenga u Rwanda kuko rwagerageje kuzana igisubizo? Ubwo nafataga inshingano zo kuyobora Umuryango wa Afurika Yunze Ubumwe hagati ya 2018 na 2019, ikibazo cy’abimukira bisukaga muri Libya bafite icyizere cyo kugera i Burayi cyankoze ku mutima.

Ni abantu babaraga ubukeye, ubuzima bwabo babukesha ba rushumusi babafasha kwambuka, barahindutse abacakara b’udutsiko tw’abagizi ba nabi, bafungwa, bafatwa nabi….

Igitekerezo nagejeje bwa mbere ku miryango mpuzamahanga bireba, kwari ukureba ahandi hantu bashyirwa, birumvikana mu gihugu cyanjye. U Rwanda ntabwo ari igihugu gikize ariko rushobora guha abimukira ubuzima bwiza n’umutekano birenze ibyo bari bafite muri Libya. Ni uko byatangiye.

Amasezerano yarasinywe, abimukira twakira baba bafite amahitamo atatu ashoboka. Guhabwa ubuhungiro mu gihugu cy’i Burayi, kikazabemera mu buryo bw’amategeko nyuma y’iperereza ryimbitse, gusubira mu gihugu cyabo mu gihe basanze wenda baribeshye ubwo bafataga umwanzuro wo kuhava, cyangwa kuguma mu Rwanda. Turi igihugu gito ariko kitananirwa gutuza abandi bantu ibihumbi.

Ni aho mpera mbaza ikibazo cyoroshye: ese ni byiza cyangwa ni bibi? Hanyuma se abo batunenga, ibindi bisubizo batanga ni ibihe?

Mufitanye umubano mwiza na Emmanuel Macron, nyamara u Bufaransa bwiyunze kuri Amerika, Canada, u Bubiligi n’Umuryango w’Ubumwe bw’u Burayi, babasaba guhagarika kwivanga mu bibazo bya RDC, byaba byarabatunguye?

Uko gufata uruhande byatewe n’amakuru atari yo kandi ntabwo byari ngombwa. Abo babikora, bakabaye aribo bazi neza iki kibazo. Ntabwo ari byiza gupfa gusubiza mu buryo butitondewe ngo ushimishe uruhande rumwe wirengagije urundi.

Ubwo Macron yantumiraga, nemeye guhura na Felix Tshisekedi muri Nzeri umwaka ushize i New York, nubwo [Tshisekedi] yari yahariye u Rwanda igice kinini cy’imbwirwaruhame yari amaze kugeza ku Nteko rusange ya Loni. Nabikoze kuko numvaga ko Macron yabitewe n’umutima mwiza afite wo gushaka gukemura ikibazo. Ndifuza ko u Bufaransa buzabasha kumva neza iki kibazo.

Hari abasesenguzi batunguwe n’igisubizo mwahaye Antony Blinken n’abandi nka we basabye ko Paul Rusesabagina arekurwa. Mwavuze ko bidashoboka keretse hagize uza gutera u Rwanda akamubohora, bivuze ko mutiteguye no kumubabarira?

Ijambo ‘gutera’ ntabwo ryari rikomeje. Ryari ishushanyamvugo rigamije kumvikanisha uburemere tubiha, iwacu ni ingingo ikomeye cyane. Paul Rusesabagina ni Umunyarwanda. Ni umunyarwanda mbere yo kuba umubiligi, cyangwa Umunyamerika.

Kuba yaramenyekanye kubera filime Hotel Rwanda cyangwa se kuba ataravugaga rumwe nanjye, ntacyo bintwaye, nta n’icyo nkeneye kubivugaho.

Icyakora, ibyaha yakoze ari nabyo byagendeweho akatirwa, birivugira n’ibimenyetso byakusanyijwe birahagije. Ni we wari uyoboye umutwe urwanya u Rwanda, wafatanyije haba mu mvugo no mu bikorwa n’abajenosideri ba FDLR. Abari bagize umutwe we baje kumushinja mu rubanza, na we arabizi. Abategereje ko tumurekura nabo ibyo ntabwo babihakana.

Bo bashaka kuvuga ngo “Ibyo mwaba mumushinja byose, nimumurekure ni ko tuvuze”. Hanyuma ngo twakabaye tubasubiza ngo “Yego ba nyakubahwa?” Igitutu nk’icyo wenda cyashoboka ahandi, ariko atari mu Rwanda. Gufata ibyo twabayemo byose ukabitesha agaciro, ni nko kudupfukamisha hasi ukaduhindura ubusa.

Mu gihe Guverinoma y’u Rwanda ikigendera ku gukumira imvugo zisa nk’izagejeje kuri Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi, hari ababona ko nyuma y’imyaka 29 ayo mategeko n’imigirire bigamije kubuza abantu bafite ibitekerezo bitandukanye n’ibyanyu kubigaragaza. Ntabwo mubona ko igihe kigeze ngo mudohore?

Ibyo uvuga bishobora kumvikana ariko bitandukanye n’uko byifashe. Turamutse dufashe ko uvuga ukuri, nakubwira ko ugereranyije n’ibihugu bitagira iterambere, ntibigire n’ubwisanzure kandi birahari byinshi, nibura twe twaba dufite kimwe muri ibyo, abantu bose bazi.

Ariko ibyo mwavuze sibyo. Hari umunsi narebaga filime mbarankuru yakozwe n’Abadage ku iterambere ry’u Rwanda, aho irangirira ku kibazo ngo “byatwaye ikihe kiguzi?”, nko gushaka kumvikanisha ko ku ruhande rumwe Abanyarwanda tubateza imbere ariko tugahindukira tukabibishyuza ubwisanzure bakabaye bafite [...] nk’aho bidashoboka ko umuntu yatera imbere afite n’ubwisanzure.

Ibyo ntibyumvikana. Genda uhure n’abanyarwanda, ubabaze wenda ufate umubare ushaka. Nusanga 90% bavuga ko hari iterambere ariko nta bwisanzure, nzemeranya nawe maze tubikoreho. Ariko se nibavuga ko byose babifite, muzongera kumbaza icyo kibazo?

Amatora ataha ya perezida mu Rwanda azaba muri Kanama 2024, mwaba muzongera kwiyamamaza?

Yego na oya. Birashoboka ariko ntabwo ndabimenya neza.

Hari bamwe bemeza ko nta kabuza uziyamamaza…

Nta gushidikanya. Ariko ni umwanzuro nzafata ku giti cyanjye, nk’umuntu wigenga.

Mumaze hafi imyaka 23 ku butegetsi nyamara benshi batekereza ko guhera mu 1994 muvuga rikijyana muri iki gihugu, muri gukora iki ngo umunsi umwe hatazabaho gutakaza imbaraga?

Ni ugukomeza kuba njyewe. Ntabwo nifata nk’aho ndi byose. Ntabwo ndi ku butegetsi ku nyungu bwite izo ari zo zose, kandi sinjya nibagirwa ko ndi umuntu kimwe n’abandi.

Ndabizi ko ubutegetsi bushobora kurangaza, ariko ushobora kubwitwaramo nabi mu mwaka wa mbere wa manda ya mbere, cyangwa nyuma y’imyaka icumi, 15, cyangwa 20.

Nemera ko kuguma ku butegetsi igihe kirekire bishobora kongera amahirwe yo kuba byabaho, ariko ntabwo imyaka umuntu amaze ku butegetsi ari yo isobanura igitugu, ahubwo ni ugushaka kugumaho abaturage babishaka cyangwa batabishaka, no kuba nta musaruro utanga. Niyo mpamvu ari ngombwa ko habaho demokarasi ituma habaho amatora yigenga, hakubahirizwa icyo abaturage bihitiyemo. Abaturage bemeje ko mukomeza kuyobora, ni uburenganzira bwabo.

Mu gitabo yanditse yise Prince, Machiaveli yaravuze ngo “Ni byiza cyane gutinywa kurusha gukundwa”. Namwe niko mubibona?

Oya, umuyobozi ntakeneye gutinywa cyangwa gukundwa. Icyo akeneye ni ukubahwa.

Ntabwo wifuza gukundwa n’abaturage bawe?

Ushobora gukundwa ariko ntibigire icyo bimara. Icyo ndeba ni ukubahirwa ibyo nakoze. Iyo nsabye kubahwa, ni uko njye ubwanjye niyubashye kandi nkubaha abandi.

Perezida Kagame ubwo yaganiraga na François Soudan wa Jeune Afrique, muri Village Urugwiro